I often read the posts at graceconversation.com and Jay Guinn’s blog, oneinjesus.info. Both offer a look into the views of self-described “progressives” within the churches of Christ. Since I am willing to openly challenge views held by others it is only fair that I would challenge myself by trying to understand views that are in opposition to mine. In fact, I think that I’ve learned some valuable things due to reading those blogs.
That said, I have some serious issues with the “progressives”. I think that when I was first converted I could have easily been labeled a progressive myself. I was reading (and buying into) authors like Cecil Hook. I have since “progressed” beyond that, but I think that I have some understanding of who the progressives are and why they believe like they do. Here are some (but certainly not all) of the types of progressives:
- I believe some fall within this label because, while they are honest and sincere students of the word, they are troubled by what they see as dogmatism or “legalism” of their more conservative brethren. These individuals are drawn to the grey areas of scripture, which puts them at odds with those who seem capable of only seeing black and white. I think many of these individuals are pushed into their positions by the hard-right who want to mark and withdraw from those who see things differently or who struggle with those grey areas.
- The second type are those that like me, were converted from a denomination. They aren’t quite ready to give up on those things that they previously believed and there is period (sometimes permanent) of “carry over”. These are individuals who saw, on a regular basis, individuals who truly love God and desire to serve Him – yet these same individuals are now pronounced unsaved and Hell bound. This is so disturbing that it seems impossible to believe. By not wanting to even consider this to be true, these individuals naturally gravitate to the progressive position.
- The last group is the group that I truly have problems with. They are the individuals who were raised being taught the full truth of the word of God. They have been encouraged to study the scriptures from their youth to see if the things taught were true. They can compare the plan of salvation as found in the word to that which they obeyed and find nothing omitted. They can compare their worship and congregational organization to the scriptures and find them just as the first century church. However, because of the fear of confrontation, they are willing to accept just about anything. They are the Rodney Kings of the churches of Christ, just wanting everyone to “get along”. They wouldn’t dare tell that Baptist (like I was) that the plan of salvation taught in their church is not the same as taught in the New Testament.
Here is the thing – there are some of us who don’t want to simply be accepted – we want to be instructed. I didn’t need to hear someone say that they were sure I was fine. I needed someone to say, “here is how you can be certain that you’re fine”. That is really where I come from in my posts here – I know that the denominations are full of good, honest people who earnestly desire to please the Lord. I would hope that some, like me, would desire further instruction. I would hope that there are many who want to hear the full counsel of God. Being willing to consider that you don’t have it all figured out doesn’t make you weak, and being willing to instruct someone further doesn’t mean that you’re hateful. In fact, I believe it to be the opposite. I am so thankful for those who were willing to tell me that everything wasn’t alright. Look:
Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction
Proverbs 6:23
For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life
Proverbs 8:33
Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not
Over and over in the book of Proverbs we are shown the value of instruction. Sometimes that instruction, whether we are the one receiving it or the one who has to give it, comes by way of reproof. Sometimes giving or receiving instruction means admitting we are wrong or telling someone that they are wrong. Those who refuse to instruct for fear of confrontation do a disservice to others.
The apostle Paul declared, “Wherefore I take you to record this day that I am pure from the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.” (Acts 20:26-27). Could he have made this claim if he had only proclaimed part of the counsel of God? Could he have made this claim if he had simply accepted everyone in order to get along and avoid confrontation? Certainly not! For someone like me, who came out of religious error and has no desire to return, I am thankful for those who were willing to instruct with reproof, even when it was undeniably uncomfortable.
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July 24, 2009 at 3:54 am
ProdigalKnot
Corey,
I believe you are correct in your estimation of the third group. I was a fan of Al Maxey for a while, and Cecil Hook as well as Ketcherside. My problem with them arose as I saw, like you, that they seem bent on proving the church of Christ wrong and accepting just about anything that wasn’t confrontational. I challenged some on the fact that they were open to the emergent church’s social gospel (Christ without His cross) and the “new” Spiritual Formation being taught in many denominations that talk about going “deeper” through ancient meditations and readings, asceticism, and other ways of “disciplining” the body; all of which speak of self-centered and self-focused religion. Catholic monks and the Desert Fathers were quite religious, but they were also very much lights (if you could call them that) hiding under the bushel of their monasteries and their inner perfection agendas.
That said, I would add a fourth group to your list. It consists of truth seekers, as I consider myself, who do not believe what men say or tradition teaches unless it is plainly taught in the scriptures. To that end I have issues with things that are not soteriological, but what bothers a recent convert who was raised in a perfectionist, will-power centered church fellowship (not churches of Christ) is the lack of
1. fervent communal prayer. I have yet to attend a “prayer meeting” where people gather for the specific purpose of bringing an issue before God.
2. I have yet to see a church of Christ minister kneel in prayer, in their offices when counseling or anywhere else.
3. Public confession is practised, but not nearly as much as it should be. Other than praise read off a card, I haven’t heard anyone rise and give God glory for answered prayer or any other thing.
4. A real lack of passion to evangelize. The main focus is on “renewing the church” or retreats, which are nice, but inwardly focused. While we have regular baptisms at the church I fellowship, almost all are family or friends and the occasional returning prodigal. I was a rare “walk-in” who wanted to see what the churches of Christ were about.
I don’t mean to complain, but I think most churches of Christ are far too comfortable in their own skins. And I worry that I am going to turn out that way myself. I truly believe most evangelical churches have ignored and failed to emphasize baptism as an essential part of salvation through faithful obedience and enjoy the a cappella singing a lot. But, I see an awful lot of inward focus in the churches I know. Coming from a background of a church where everyone else was wrong, but “aren’t we blessed to know the truth” and no effort ever made to evangelize the lost unless they actually walked in off the street, I worry that maybe I’m too comfortable where I am at.
Just some thoughts on this. I do not want to compromise the truth, but I don’t want to get along just to get along with either side. I want to believe only what is truth, not matter where it leads me. You know I had big issues about baptism, but I think that has been settled for me. What man can elevate himself to say what God has commanded isn’t important or necessary? I pray that we will all love the truth and God more than our own selves.
July 24, 2009 at 12:56 pm
coreydavis
Steve – I really appreciate your thoughts and agree with most of what you say. I will say this – don’t let the faults of the churches of Christ in your little corner of the world make you think that there are none who strive to be better (especially in evangelism) in those areas.
Too often people get hung up on one bad experience, one negative individual, whatever. When we see areas where our congregations are not measuring up to the Biblical example we have to ask, “how can I make this better?”
God bless!
July 25, 2009 at 9:02 pm
Jeff
Corey, there is a fourth group: The political progressive. That is, one who chooses a “camp” based not so much on belief as on who’s in which camp. They can’t stand this person or that one or that periodical, so they choose to join up with the opposition. Or, perhaps a large number of their friends are in one group, so they join up out of personal loyalty rather than conviction. Or, worst of all, those preachers who pledge their loyalty because their paycheck will be bigger and more reliable.
That’s not only true of the left-ward elements of Christ’s churches, of course. The one thing my studies of church history have taught me is that in any division, there seem to be precious few on any side actually interested in truth and many interested in either being on the “winning” side or sticking it to someone else. Even those who start out based on honest principle often quickly resort to politics.
July 25, 2009 at 9:04 pm
Jeff
While you’re thinking about Guin, though, I’m curious about your thoughts on his recent so-called “Church of Christ Deism” posts. I’ve never seen anyone appear to have so much trouble understanding the difference between a supernatural cause and supernatural means.
July 25, 2009 at 9:37 pm
lee
Joh 5:39 SearchG2045 theG3588 scriptures;G1124 forG3754 inG1722 themG846 yeG5210 thinkG1380 ye haveG2192 eternalG166 life:G2222 andG2532 theyG1565 areG1526 they which testifyG3140 ofG4012 me.G1700
when i read your discussions i think of this scripture.
are church of christ members servants to the parameters
of the word or to the one who wrote it?
i will tell you that i serve jesus out of love not fear that i must
not step out side the rope.
lee
July 27, 2009 at 1:02 pm
coreydavis
Jeff, I’ve certainly seen the political side of things, especially on the hard-right. I hesitate to mention their name, but there is one group that has basically drawn some hard, and far reaching lines over what I’d call a non-issue. To see the same on the progressive side wouldn’t surprise me.
I’ve actually been posting on Guinn’s “Church of Christ Deism” articles and the response has been unsurprising to say the least.
Lee – that is great that you serve out of love, but wanting to respect the lines the Lord has drawn does not mean that one is serving out of fear without love.
July 27, 2009 at 2:14 pm
lee
perhaps you are right…..didnt think you would hear that?
but read the chapter i mentioned and see if jesus wasnt making
the same point.
lee.
ps feel well!
July 27, 2009 at 3:40 pm
Randy
Great Post, Corey.
I agree with much of what you say and Steve too. I too jumped on the wagon with Maxey, Cecil, Ketherside and others…but what turned me off was/is the more I read from progressives, the more I see a turning to “Rodney King” religion, which I find alarming.
I still find it very hard to say that Baptist and other denominations are hell bound, but then I see a movement towards the things Steven sited too. If we allow one group – the Baptist for example, then doesn’t this open the door for every denomination?
I seen over at Truths blog ( who ever he is ) where they are slamming on Johnny for many things, but they fail to address other issues that Johnny states. Johnny raised a point last night with one caller regarding this issues you have in this post. He ask the caller would the Baptist folk accept the Methodist and the caller said no…and then this caller even told Johnny he was making sense.
Tell a Pentecostal to go into a Baptist church and speak in tongues and see what happens. Or tell the Methodist to go into a Baptist church and teach baptism by sprinkling. These groups all reject each others teachings but then claim they are all in fellowship….sorry, but that just isn’t good math.
Randy
July 27, 2009 at 4:10 pm
Jeff
Corey, so you have been posting there. I apologize for not seeing that before. Past experience has advised me to avoid the comments at oneinjesus.
I also apologize for yanking these comments off into the “Deism” discussion.
July 27, 2009 at 5:17 pm
coreydavis
Jeff – no problem. I think those posts are very relevant as they show the progressive mindset, which seems to be nothing more than casting doubt (without any viable explanation otherwise). By his own admission, Todd Deaver wrote a book about the “failings” of the conservative position, yet offers no alternative (although it is supposedly to come). In other words, “I’m not sure what the right position is, but I’m sure your position isn’t it”.
Randy – when I get a chance I want to write some thoughts on what you said. Don’t think I’m ignoring you, because I appreciate what you’ve said!
August 6, 2009 at 3:43 pm
Jeff
Just noticed today that the plug was apparently pulled on the “conversation.”
August 6, 2009 at 4:13 pm
Randy
Hi guys,
Jeff, I have expected this for sometime now. I have mixed feelings on this and wish some sort of dialogue could have taken place – using Corey’s comment, it was a train wreck. Honestly, I had my doubts from the onset.
Right now, I am not attending anywhere and really feel like throwing the towel in because I really am frustrated with the hypocrisy within the churches of Christ. What right do we have to condemn others e.g., denominations and yet we are just as bad, maybe worse. I think Todd came this place too and he sought for answerers and in his book he sent me, he admitted he didn’t have the answer–one to bridge the gaps.
You recall Jeff, the church of Christ preacher you I went back and forth with a couples years back via email, how he was turning against everything. This was partly due to this inconsistencies and hypocrisy he saw within his own teaching. This man debated live on TV many times and made some real good arguments, but he also confessed that he swept much under the rug and that is what I see today within the churches of Christ. We all know we don’t speak the same things or walk together, and yet we sweep in under the rug hoping nobody will see thru our charade. Because, if all of the denominational folk seen how we really are, how could we tell them how wrong they are—-nobody likes eating out of a dirty bowl, so we hide the bowl and pretend everything is ok.
I would like, in the future you or Corey to explain. who is your brother in Christ and why? You know the radical conservatives would say Corey is lost due to his view of the indwelling of the Spirit…does this fall into error that would damn, say if Corey is wrong? You see where I am headed…once you make a rule apply here, you are forced to be consistent and apply it in other area we disagree….where is the line???
August 6, 2009 at 6:03 pm
coreydavis
I think that the ending of graceconversation is probably for the best. It had been a mess almost from the beginning (especially the comments after each post), so I doubt anyone will miss it except those that have to find new places to grind their axes.
Randy – this:
Right now, I am not attending anywhere
is just wrong. You seem like you want to find a perfect congregation that teaches perfect doctrine that you can agree with totally – you’re not going to find that. I think you know/believe that there is no other group trying harder to be the church we read of in scriptures than those identifying themselves as the churches of Christ today. You know that you don’t have everything figured out. You probably acknowledge that you’ve been wrong at times. You need to join yourself with a congregation of the Lord’s people and try to accept them (warts and all) like you know God would want you to.
As to this question:
who is your brother in Christ and why?
I’m going to make this simple – that is everyone who has obeyed the obligations God has given to man to become part of His kingdom, for the reasons He said.
There are some brothers who worship in ways I couldn’t go along with and who I’d like to discuss differences with. Some are hard-right and some are raging liberals. There are those in both directions who have gone too far, but that is on them. Not everyone at my congregation would agree as to who is and who isn’t our brothers…I think it is much the same many places. I would draw the line where others wouldn’t.
I am going to do my best individually and as a teacher. I will try to bear with those who see things differently until they either violate the word or ask me to violate my conscience. That is where I stand – knowing I’m not perfect and bearing with my brothers and sisters, knowing they’re not either (even if they think they are).
August 6, 2009 at 7:19 pm
lee
I think you know/believe that there is no other group trying harder to be the church we read of in scriptures than those identifying themselves as the churches of Christ today.
this not directed to me but i find it offensive cory.
in fact the example i have here in our area is not at all
a copy or even a reasonable facsimile of the church we read
about in the bible.
lee
August 6, 2009 at 7:49 pm
Randy
Very true Corey. I really do believe that there is no other group trying harder to be the church we read of in scriptures than those identifying themselves as the churches of Christ today. And, you are right about me looking for a “perfect congregation” and you hit the rest right on the money too. I maybe shouldn’t point fingers, but this mindset came from me following some who are very radical with their beliefs to the point that it forces a person to think this way. This attitude is why Lee and others are frustrated. I really can understand their frustration. But, on the flip side, I do not believe in easy-believism (sp ) as taught by most in my area.
There is much I could say here, but time is my enemy at the moment. I will check back at a later date.
Thanks for addressing this.
Randy
August 6, 2009 at 8:15 pm
coreydavis
this not directed to me but i find it offensive cory.
in fact the example i have here in our area is not at all
a copy or even a reasonable facsimile of the church we read
about in the bible.
Well, Lee, I’m sorry if that statement offends you, but I stand by it.
I remember on Nathan’s site that Randy would post about some of the wild goings-on in some Pentecostal churches (rolling in the floors, etc.) and you pointed out that what a few Pentecostal churches do isn’t necessarily what they all do (and I assume those things don’t happen at yours). Take what you said to Randy and reverse it. When you go to painting be careful how wide of a brush you use.
August 6, 2009 at 9:53 pm
lee
what did i say and in what context?
lee
August 7, 2009 at 12:52 pm
coreydavis
I don’t know how to be more clear. You said that not all Pentecostal churches do the crazy things that Randy pointed out.
August 7, 2009 at 3:33 pm
lee
you are not clear at all.
you said i painted with a wide brush.
i only spoke about the non representative of god
johnny robertson. no one else. so please explain your comment.
now im no artist but i can paint by the numbers as good as anyone else.
{you do remember paint by numbers sets?}
lee
August 7, 2009 at 3:44 pm
coreydavis
I was referring to the part in bold specifically:
in fact the example i have here in our area is not at all a copy or even a reasonable facsimile of the church we read about in the bible.
I’m saying that you basing your impression of the churches of Christ as a whole on those in your area is no different than Randy linking all Pentecostal churches to the most extreme examples (which I don’t think was what he was really saying at the time anyway).
August 7, 2009 at 7:50 pm
lee
cory
you absolutely knew i was referring to johnny robertson.
he has placed himself as the preeminent example of the coc in this area.
in fact i had never even been cognizant of the coc, and there are several in our area until this man made a spectacle of his own self on tv regularly.
i had No cause to judge the coc. robertson is the one who says he invites questions but answers none and then straw mans the questioner to death with his obvious training in these tactics.
he is the consummate showman. not me.
so he is the point of contention not you or the coc.
by the way i still pray for you.
hope you are well
lee
August 10, 2009 at 5:10 pm
lee
hello cory.
did you read the last comment?
lee
August 10, 2009 at 5:16 pm
coreydavis
Yes, I read it. I was simply trying to tell Randy I don’t believe there is any group trying harder to be the church described in the New Testament than those identifying themselves as the churches of Christ. If you think that I mean that every congregation who identifies themselves as such has the same motives, you misunderstand.
I know you’re referring to Johnny and the congregations in your area, and you know I’m not going to discuss them. We’re just going to have to drop the Johnny discussions here – there are plenty of other blogs dedicated solely to him, so I guess you’ll have to discuss those things there.
I appreciate your prayers/concern. My left leg & arm seem to get weaker all the time, but other than that, I’m doing well.
September 16, 2009 at 4:01 pm
Randy
Corey, one thing that baffles me is the way Progressives and Conservatives lack a willingness to discuss these things. I am sure you have had Progressives visit here and read this post — but where are their comments? Same with Graceconversation blog — not many Conservatives tackled the points made by the Progressives. Honestly when I read Graceconversation, I come away feeling like they are right with their views, seeing the Conservatives are practically silent. But, then I see a post like yours here and they are the ones being silent. I just don’t understand why both sides cant discuss things more.
September 16, 2009 at 5:50 pm
coreydavis
Well, I don’t think you need to be baffled – I think it is really simple. People like to do things on their own terms. They also like situations where they feel comfortable. If you are a “progressive”, going onto a conservative blog is not your terms, neither are you going to feel comfortable there, and vice versa.
If you noticed the comments at graceconversation, it was a mess (although very telling). The progressives couldn’t even agree with one another. Jay & Todd admitted the scriptures teach that a Christian can lose their salvation. Many of those commenting couldn’t agree with that. Many appeared to be Calvinists. At least one appeared to deny the deity of Jesus. Why would a conservative want to wade into that mess? Look how many positions they would have to address!
The same is true of Nathan’s blog. As soon as one point was addressed another was raised. Certain individuals were always demanding that ALL of their questions be answered, never answering any themselves. As was pointed out on many occasions, that site could have rightly been named “questioning the church of Christ” rather than “answering…”.
I don’t see how much can come from written discussions/debates on the internet. We can’t understand tone. We can’t even be sure if we’re talking to a real person or a faked personality! How can we have a profitable discussion under such circumstances?
I notice that many congregations can be labeled “progressive” or “conservative”. Why? Because people want to be comfortable, not challenged. I see little progress achieved until both parties come together, face-to-face, and attempt to talk things out. That is, by the way, what Mac suggested (and was attacked for). Is there any wonder why so many prefer the anonymity of the internet? They don’t have the courage to step out of their comfort zones and face those with whom they disagree.
September 16, 2009 at 6:33 pm
Randy
I am not so sure if a public debate/discussion would work either. Too often this boils down to who has the fastest gun—who can spit out scripture fastest or who is most Charismatic.
The problem with public debate is that we often judge tone over content. I have seen this used to sway people. As you know, oral debating is much more than simply presenting the subject. It involves body language and a host of other skills. I happen to think Obama is a great debater, but I wouldn’t say I agree with him on the issues. But, he possesses the ability to sway many people with his debating skills. He comes across as confident, knowledgeable, Charismatic, and fast n his feet and people are swayed by this.
September 17, 2009 at 2:49 pm
lee
dont delete me noooooooooooooooo!
that’s enough, lee
-Corey
September 18, 2009 at 3:38 am
lee
well your the boss…….here.
lee
September 25, 2009 at 11:20 pm
Larry Short
First may I thank Corey for this site and the moderate (rather than progressive or conservative) attitude. I’m ashamed of Christians, CofCers who are aligned with the edges. Some people could care less what God has said, and others could care less about people. Jesus said love God first and man second. Simple, it you make me choose, I have to side with the big guy. If a matter is of our choosing we need to love all choices, and their choosers!
To a lot of the discussion above, grow up! Go to church. Seek a group, first that honors God & His word. Next, seek a group that loves people. (Careful do not reverse these!) If you can’t find both in a church in your area, choose one who honors God and become a change agent for love of people. The statement above that the CofC is a good choice in this I find true, however no one has attended every congregation.
Loving God leads to correct practice, good morals, lasting answers, and no big surprise when we stand before the throne. Loving people leads to peace with our brethern even if they do things a little different, and finding people who if they knew God’s will better could serve Him better (evangelism).
One last related thought. Every congregation does not have to be a copy of all others. If one group wants contemporary songs, and another wants those grand old favorities, there is no sin. You are free to choose either. (Time will take care of this, as today’s new is tomorrow’s old favorites.)
September 28, 2009 at 1:49 pm
coreydavis
Thanks for the good words, Larry.